But again, this is another argument by exception because even if shes referring back to Hannah, the debate is about how these dogmas, whether or not theyre how theyre used in scripture. Yeah, no, Im grateful for Steve to take part in this. First Corinthians 15 talks about heavenly bodies and that Mary is given Well, I think what Steve was saying here is that, okay, well, Mary had an earthy body. I think thats really terrific. It only states that Jesus was an exception to this because he had a divine nature, not a sinful nature, as well as a human nature. All righty. Finally, the point about Mary dying, I think Steve was really missing this here. Steve Christie joins me this week to discuss how he got started in apologetics and why it is important. A fully independent, lay-run, 501(c)(3) ministry that receives no funding from the institutional Church, we rely entirely on the generosity of everyday people like you to keep this website going with trustworthy, fresh, and relevant content. So Im well aware of that. Now, does the Bible teach that everyone has sinned? Its like, because-. And then whenever you start speaking, Ill click the time. One of them is about the false typologies that are used by contemporary Catholic apologists in order to justify Mary being the new ark, and I explain Dont go to it now. But anyways, Im going to come back to that. In Maccabees would be an example or the Jewish work Joseph and Aseneth. And so if it doesnt contradict scripture, then it should be an issue between Catholics and Protestants of secondary importance, much like how people disagree about infant baptism. For example, the Essene Jews, whose writings have been preserved in the Dead Sea Scrolls, recognized the deuterocanonical books as Scripture. bitcoin wyohackathon bitcoinkn.com Trace Mayer Steve Christie Kraken.com. So even if that dogma is defined ex cathedra by a pope, by an ecumenical council, or by the magisterium, if it contradicts scripture, that dogma must be rejected. It is fitting, therefore its true. If Mary was conceived sinless and kept the law perfectly, then Christ could not be her savior. So my quick mini rebuttal. Whenever you begin, I will click your time for-. For example, although Josephus seems to defend what is equivalent to the Protestant canon, scholars recog-nize his propensity for exaggeration. So lets take a look at them. I would give this analogy to my protestant brothers and sisters. But even St. Louis de Montfort who uses very lofty language of Mary says of her that she is but one Adam in comparison to the infinite and majestic glory that is God. Finally, this debate is not about Marian doctrines or theological opinions about Mary. In his recent book Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, Protestant apologist Steve Christie claims that all Christians should accept the Protestant Old Testament canon and reject the deuterocanonical books of Judith, Tobit, Baruch, Wisdom, Sirach, 1and 2 Maccabees, and portions of Daniel and Esther. Im not saying thats a required view, but its a quite plausible one. Hallo.com/mattfred. But if we just read Scripture and read it fairly and charitably, theres nothing that contradicts, so far, Mary being mother of God, ever Virgin, or being immaculately conceived. Yeah. So does the Bible say Mary gave birth to anyone besides Jesus? General Discussion (Forum) Main. So if you got a hallow.com/mattfred right now, click that link in the description below, youll get a three month trial. Yeah. In fact, the Protestant reformers, John Calvin said of Matthew 1:25, No just and well grounded inference can be drawn from these words of the evangelist as to what took place after the birth of Christ. Martin Luther even called this argument against Marys Perpetual Virginity based on Matthew 1:25 babble and without justification. But when you look into church history, its kind of hard to answer that question because even Trent cannot say about somebody that agreed exactly the way that he does. Thats why Protestant scholars since the nineteenth century have taken the position Herbet Ryle did in saying the legend about the Great Synagogue was wholly untrustworthy., Christie also cites Geoghan and Homess book The Bible for Dummies in favor of the Great Synagogue, but on page 11 the authors make no mention of the Great Synagogue or of Ezras canon being identical to todays Protestant Old Testament. Well, the Septuagint was a Greek translation that was finished around 134 BC. . Paul himself reaffirms this in Romans 9:11. So the Catholics authority is not balanced on a three legged stool of the Magisterium, sacred tradition, and holy Scripture, but on a one-legged stool of the Magisterium, which subjectively determines what Scripture and tradition are and how to interpret them. - Fr. And Id probably want to make Peter the rock of the church. Yeah. Primary meaning of the word adelphos can either refer to having the same biological mother or father. Oct 10 My debate against Dr Robert Sungenis has been RESCHEDULED for Tues Nov 8 at 8pm EST: youtube.com These would be children from his previous marriage, making them adoptive brothers and sisters, and as such, they would be fully Jesuss brother and sister, the full use of the word adelphos. But let me get to that point about death though. We see this in Zechariah 12:10, where it talks about, They look on him who theyve pierced. Lastly, Psalm 69:8 is a messianic verse, I have become estranged from my brothers and an alien to my mothers sons. Because verse nine begins with for, which is a conjunction, meaning because, since, or therefore, indicating that the same Messiah who would experience zeal for your house in verse nine is also the same Messiah whose mother would have other children in verse eight, which prophesied Jesus younger half brothers not believing in him in John 7:3-5 and dishonoring him in Mark 6:3-4, which occurred earlier in Mark 3:20-21 when they accused Jesus of being out of his senses, just as the future King David rebuked his oldest brother. Because there would be no reason to rescue her from death because a purpose of a bodily assumption into heaven is so an individual would not see death. By utilizing electric acoustic guitar and digitally recorded performance tracks with the technology of digital harmony Steve performs your favorite hits, "flawlessly". This is known as [inaudible 01:09:50]. And what I would say here is that I agree that use of [inaudible 01:22:20] in Luke 1:28 does not prove the doctrine of the immaculate conception. When the New Testament writers wish to convey female non-sibling relatives, such as Elizabeth and Mary, they chose other Greek words, such as [foreign language 00:01:39] or [foreign language 00:01:39] So also, Luke 14:12 and 21:16, where the evangelist uses different Greek words to distinguish relatives from brothers. Lets see here. Well, why would I believe that Marys parents-. Let no one dwell in their tents. This is later applied in Acts 120, but not to a group of people, to an individual, namely Judas. As the Apostle Paul wrote in his fourth chapter in his epistle to the Roman church, For what does Scripture say? First, this debate is not about whether the Bible teaches the Marian Dogmas or even if the evidence shows that theyre true. And I also showed his other arguments to try to show that Mary gave birth to other children, such as from Psalm 69, Luke chapter two, as well as the idea that Matthew 1:25 requires that she and Joseph had sexual relations. But they disagree about that because at least infant baptism, for many Protestants, at least it doesnt contradict Scripture, even if Scripture is silent on the matter. They were committed to Sola scriptura but we also have to remember that even though they were formers, they were also Roman Catholics and their issue with Romans was not about Marian dogmas, it was about the authority of scripture over the authority of the church. Trent had mentioned about Mary and her Magnificat saying, God, my savior, and she was referring back to Hannah. Follow him on Twitter: @sean_mcdowell and his blog: seanmcdowell.org. Mounce writes, Nicodemus politely says Jesus is a teacher; but when Nicodemus does not understand the necessity of a spiritual rebirth, Jesus questions his status as the teacher, an authoritative rabbi (A Teacher or The Teacher?). Dr. Steven A. Christie MD Radiology General Radiology Kendall, FL Male 21+ Yrs Experience English 7500 SW 87th Ave, Kendall, FL Overview Location & Contact Education & Experience Overview. He took his wife, but knew her not until she had born a son and he called his name Jesus. But the Greek word for until, eos, does not always entail a reversal of condition. The earliest codex we have is the tenth-century-A.D. Aleppo codex, and it places the book of Chronicles at the beginning of the Writings (or ketuvim) and not as the last book of the Hebrew bible. United States. I mean, you got me on the spot. According to Old Testament scholar Otto Kaiser, the deuterocanonical books presuppose the validity of the Law and the Prophets and also utilize the Ketubim or Writings collection which was, at the time, still in the process of formation and not yet closed (Old Testament Apocrypha, 2). Okay. They go into the glory of God. So ultimately Steve has the burden here to show that the Marian dogmas contradict scripture, and hes brought up a lot of points. He is the host of the popular, award-winning film series on salvation history, . Yeah. May 31, 2022. This is a great resource to have, and the beautiful photos of the children in the womb speak for themselves. Steve Christie Co-founder at Provizio; Accident Prevention Technology Belfast Metropolitan Area Proviz.io, +2 more Queen's University Belfast Steve Christie Advisor - Halliburton Consulting. I was citing Baukham on that point, and [Greek 00:52:31] is just not used in the New Testament, so its just not a common word. Im also going to send Matt a link to my other channel, verasage.us/stevechristie. I think that what were quibbling a little bit here on the assumption, I think we actually have more things we agree on than less. However, he should have cited what Jimmy said immediately before that quote: It wasnt entirely clear to every group of Jews exactly what books belonged in the Old Testament., Akin goes on to write that Jesus and the apostles went a bit further than the Pharisees on the issue of the canon. Yeah. In 1993, Christie set a Bills record by kicking a 59-yard field goal in a regular-season game. Should we baptize babies or not? And Steve and I also both agreed that the universality of things like sin or death dont preclude exceptions. David K. Clark - apologist with notable books; teaches at Bethel Seminary. Calvin did not believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary. What about the other Marian Dogmas? 1644440684524367. steve.christie@phmloans.com. And then Steve, what are some objections you hear from Protestants to Catholics that you dont think are good? And there, we would just debate about whether sacred tradition is a plausible source of divine revelation. No, I dont think you are following my point. He put that on his glorified resurrection body after the resurrection. Get your complimentary mortgage payment estimate* Apply Now. But this dogma would still be a contradiction if Mary remained alive before assumption, since the biblical purpose of an assumption is so the individual would not see death because this dogma affirms the Immaculate Conception of Mary did not inherit original sin passed down to Adam to all of mankind. They also didnt believe in the dogma either. Or Enoch and Elijah who never died because they were assumed alive into heaven. Theres more to it than that. All serious students of God's Word need to know these Christian apologists below. Because once again, not every truth of the faith, not every truth about first century life, for example, has been handed down to us. If Mary was a immaculate conceived, why would Joseph and her kinsfolk who knew her-. Well, again, this is the exception. Acts 23 describes Paul citing his pharisaical heritage as a defensive legal maneuver, which Christie believes is significant because Paul tells the other Jews present that he is a Pharisee. When Mary declared God, my savior. In Luke 1:47, she understood that Jesus was the savior to grant repentance and forgiveness of sins, in Acts 5:31 and in Titus 2:9-11, which included her own. And then Steve, because Steve, I can tell that youve really wrestled with what Catholicism teaches. I dont think he could do that. Yeah. Their issue is about the authority of the church. Just as we have born the image of the earthy we, which includes Mary, we will also bear the image of the heavenly. We and also, which again includes Mary. The Protestant Old Testament canon is also not what we find in the oldest manuscripts of the Bible, such as codex Sinaticus and codex Vaticanus, which date from the fourth century after Christ. I command that you do it. No, he was free from sin, but he still had a mortal human nature that could be subject to death. How do we know that theyre brothers? Take your time there, Steve, getting yourself ready. He says, this is a question for Steve. Trent, you have 10 minutes to cross examine Steve, whenever you begin. . Why was she shocked about the enunciation? Is primary meaning of adelphos that you have the same biological mother and father? They werent arguments that I made, but they were arguments that other people have made. Yeah. It can mean sister of having the same mother and father, or of having just the same father, or just the same mother. As far as adelphos, I dont have a problem with the word adelphos, but my question is, why would you abandon its primary meaning for another meaning when it doesnt demand it? Please try again later. The purpose of this debate, as Trent had brought up, is about the Marian Dogmas. Did the reformers believe every Catholic truth? This means Mary was earthy like Adam, before she was heavenly once Jesus redeemed and delivered her. Okay. Jesuss kin in Nazareth did not fully understand his status as the Messiah. So Im going to ask the question again and see if youll answer it. For example, we could ask the question were the apostles baptized? Can a person die? This is really great. And I would say the same applies to Mary, were just having different views about what counts as divine revelation. And again, scripture states, Because Jesus is God is why he would not inherit sin like Mary did, because Mary is not God, unless Trent is going in that direction, which I dont think it is. 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